England's second tier = MLS quality; let's not pretend otherwise
by Steve Davis on Feb 18, 2010 12:14 PM EST
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PrintI hate to open this can of worms. Those little buggers get to creepin’ and crawlin’ and who knows where they’ll end up. But I just have to say this:
The managers, movers, shakers and deciders in Major League Soccer and in the U.S. Soccer establishment simply have to break free of their schoolboy crush on all things
For whatever reason, we automatically assign a greater value to any soccer export from the
Yes, the
But here is yet another example of where our infatuation can be destructive:
Once again, we see a club (and some of its attached media and fans) getting all hot and bothered because some middling talent from a lower tier arrives on our shores amid unrealistic expectations at best and outright delusions of grandeur at worst.
It seems that
Let’s briefly review the facts: He’s 37. He scored a grand total of two goals in 16 matches this year before being released by
That’s really about all you need to know about Dickov. That’s about all I know. This guy may be a Saint for all I know. He may be funnier that Jon Stewart, tell better stories than The Most Interesting Man in the World, woo the women like Johnny Depp and be a better leader of men than Winston Freakin’ Churchill himself.
But if he can’t score more than twice in the Championship, why is
But
Here’s the thing: I’ve seen games in the Championship. I’ve seen the quality, and it’s not any better than MLS. It’s about the same. There. I said it. Let the outrage commence.
There is a history of second-tied players from
Anyone remember Dr. Goals?
That was Kenny Deuchar, who arrived at RSL in 2008. In four previous seasons with
Hmmm. After 29 matches in RSL and just three goals, he clearly wasn’t the answer. Lesson learned, presumably.
We currently have Danny Allsopp, who just arrived at D.C. United amid significant expectations. The Aussie striker’s last run in
Of course, that was in
He’s also 32. Could he be an adequate second or third striker at RFK? Perhaps. But I get the feeling that Curt Onalfo and United’s management is looking for him to be more. And he could be – but I have my doubts.
Of course, it can go right with fellows from the Championship. Darren Huckerby arrived at
All I’m saying is this: let’s not pretend that guys from lower
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Good Post
Yeah, why is TFC signing someone who is THIRTY SEVEN!?!? Bad move, unless TFC secretly discovered the fountain of youth. While they are at it, they should also tell us the location of El Dorado and Atlantis.
I would say Championship is roughly equivalent to MLS. Good players in the championship will be good in MLS, bad players in the championship will be bad in MLS. Maybe the top couple teams in the championship are hands down better than MLS, like Newcastle and West Brom, but that’s about it. It’s tough to compare the two leagues without much statistical evidence or international tournaments where they play each other.
As a Quake fan, I can rave about how awesome Huckerby was for us, but he was also great in the championship (and solid in the prem). But I can also whine about Bobby Convey – he was at one point the top rated player in the championship in 2005 for Reading, but he has been terrible for San Jose (albeit he hasn’t been the same since his injury).
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by johnjahafanclub on Feb 18, 2010 12:41 PM EST reply actions
No argument here
Steve, it boggles my mind that there are people that will read this and think you’re nuts. Anyone who has watched a Championship match would be able to see that it’s around equal quality to MLS. However, a lot of people have opinions on things they don’t actually know about, just as a lot of people made up their minds about MLS years ago and will not reconsider. It’s the way of the world.
I think any excitement in Toronto over Dickov will come because a) he’s played in the Premier League and b) they are desperate for any forward to actually score goals consistently. There’s no team with more wasteful strikers in MLS. If he was on trial with a different team, you’d probably get a different reaction. If Dickov showed up in DC United’s camp, people wouldn’t get past 37 years old. We aren’t as desperate for success at that position, having had a respectable goal haul in recent times. However, if you put a former Premier League defender in our camp, I’m sure we’d be exhibiting the same kind of premature glee. You get excited about what your team lacks.
As for Allsopp, I’m in the wait and see camp. That said, your doubts don’t seem unreasonable. I mean, he’s one of the top scorers in A-League history, but then Fred is treated like a genius there. In MLS, that translated to inconsistent play; I can’t shake the idea that it’ll be another mixed bag. I also have to wonder about Onalfo’s record with forwards, after it being a chronic problem in Kansas City.
From where I sit, it seems most likely that our best forward pair is going to be Pontius and Moreno, with Allsopp being the guy most likely to replace Moreno when he tires. However, it appears that we’ll start the season with Moreno as our resident supersub.
I've always felt that the Championship
was a good comparison for MLS. The top Championship sides are better than the top MLS sides, but I think the bottom MLS sides would have their way with the bottom Championship sides. I think that, for the most part, MLS starting XI’s are better than the Championship’s, but the MLS clubs can’t match the depth that Championship clubs have. Once the MLS salary cap gets up to $5 million (and that might not be for 5+ years), I think the depth will be there to be better than the Championship.
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by Ryan Rosenblatt on Feb 18, 2010 1:36 PM EST reply actions
I totally agree with the above
My reaction was the same: The range in quality in the Championship is a bit less than MLS and MLS would generally fit in the middle of the Championship. I was born in Peterborough so I’ve been paying attention to the bottom of the Championship this year and they wouldn’t compete well in MLS. But I don’t see MLS teams doing well against the likes of Newcastle or WBA. There isn’t as much stratification as there is in the Premiership, but there is still a lot.
I also agree that the Championship teams generally have more depth than MLS, but then again I watch the LA Galaxy where lack of depth has been a massive issue.
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I’m getting more and more excited for MLS season to begin. Once RBArena opens, I’ll post pictures. While it’s not the cleanest game ever (sometimes it is very sloppy and resembles HS soccer), the talent is there, and the games are very fun to go to.
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by Matthew Roth on Feb 18, 2010 5:40 PM EST up reply actions
Blimey!
Paul Dickov? Ha ha ha! He was fairly rubbish when he had two knees; don’t make the mistake of equating him with an average Championship player (not that you appear to be).
As for the comparison I think I’d agree somewhat with Ryan up above me there. Newcastle, West Ham and suchlike would murder most MLS teams I’ve seen: they have the depth of squad to be able to field eleven competitive players every game; players who have to be at the top of their game as they have someone competing for their position. The smaller, poorer clubs don’t have the luxury so may field teams with glaring gaps.
Not really fair
The move to bring “Dr. Goals” to RSL was based how he played in the SPL, actually when Garth saw him score multiple goals against Rangers in a match. Bringing him into a very bad, midst of a rebuilding project, and then failing to play him the ball, all lead to Kenny going back to the SPL.
The problem was that RSL had never played with a real target player who wanted the ball played to his head in the box, one of “the doctor’s” favorite ways of scoring. We had outside backs and midfielders who were much more used to playing the ball up the middle or into space in the area, rather than to a player.
I think Kenny could have been a success if a team had simply played to his strength, but a young head coach tried to change him and it didn’t work. I actually wished he would have gotten another chance in MLS. Since going to St. Johnstone on a free, he has two goals in 13 matches in League play and one in FA Cup play.
Sorry, just think you are talking about two very different situations, also Kenny came over and cost only $145,000 which is a very low price for a prospective goal scorer on the international market.
145k is a very low price ...
… for someone who actually produces. that’s just it. he didn’t. I don’t care why he didn’t work … that is part of the manager’s and GM’s duties, to determine where he fits. i have the utmost respect for Jason and Garth, and I like them both personally. but any way you slice it, this was a huge swing and a miss. no matter why it is, you show me a guy who gets paid 50K per goal, i’ll show you a situation where things went wrong.
what about
I would say there are plenty who cost more and produced less, I agree it was a real stretch to sign him but without taking risks in the league you will never get anything done. RSL made a bigger attempt last year with Luis Miguel Escalada, but he didn’t work out either. I just think that Kenny has some talent and could have played in MLS and been productive, but with RSL it wasn’t going to happen because we were (and I would stay) still are looking for their identity as a team.
I think the comparison between MLS and the Championship is fair, but what is the average payroll for a Championship team? Going to bet it is a bit more than the 2 million most MLS teams spend.
You left out
I’m surprised you left out Mark Wilson off this list. He’s a guy who starts about half the games for Doncaster Rovers who are in 10th in the Championship….he was a guy who was clearly not up to the quality of an MLS starting midfielder and was cut from FC Dallas after half a season.
Personally, I think defenses in the Championship as a whole are a good bit better than MLS defenses, but attacking talent in MLS is stronger than the Championship as a whole.
by Boomersooner027 on Feb 18, 2010 5:16 PM EST reply actions
Burnley vs Timbers
I recall that this summer when the Burnley team came to the US to get some preseason work in prior to starting their run in the Premier League, they only managed a tie against the Timbers, a USL team. I know it was a preseason game for Burnley which means they probably played players that did not make their starting 11. But it still gives us a glimpse of the quality we have achieved in the US. When I watch MLS I want to see American kids playing American soccer. The league, the players and the fans benefit from having some quality internationals as well as some developing talent from across the region. But the last thing I want to see is some unknown player in the last of his playing years just because he happens to be from the UK or any other soccer nation for that matter.
You're so Right Stevo...
MLS teams are very comparable to Div. 1 in England (I don’t like the new names for the leagues, so I won’t use them). I propose this to anyone who will listen. Put all of MLS teams into the Premiership, and the top 2 teams in MLS may just survive the drop. All other teams would be relegated for sure, and would be dispersed throughout Div 1. 3rd best may get promoted!
Chad the Ref
Don't make me laugh.....
As an englishman now living in the states, and trying to teach Americans how to play ‘soccer’, as you love to call it, I have to strongly disagree with Mr Davis’ comments.
I’ve seen enough MLS games to know that this league is generally a long way off being equal to the English Championship. That’s not to say it isn’t improving but your ‘America First’ attitude is typical of what we coaches come up against when we try and coach here and are faced with the same frustrating American attitudes and general disrespect of the biggest game we gave to the world.
You still need accomplished players from around the world to raise the standard of the MLS and make it more competitive. (That’s why Beckham has to go and play in Serie A because Capello won’t select him if he only plays MLS).
What you have to do is spend more time on training and developing more of your homegrown players in order to raise the standard of your league, that should be part of why these experienced players come to America and why people like me come to teach the game. You also need a second divison so as you can bring promotion and relegation.
Make your MLS more competitive then we’ll see the standard rise to something near to the English Championship!
Nick A .......From Brit to Brit don't make a fool of yourself
Nick A’s attitude is so typical of the arrogance of a lot of the Brits who come over here to ‘coach’ and show the Americans how to play real ‘footie’ A real coach who knew anything about the game would know different and not make such comments. Just because you played the game in the pub league and hold a season ticket for a Premier League team (sorry – Championship, as that’s your expertese) it does not make you an expert on the game or capable of coaching youth players. I am a Brit who has been here for 20 years coaching the whole time. 10-15 years ago the youth game in my homeland was playing catch-up with the US youth development.. I’m glad to say it now has caught up with the introduction of small-sided games and actually training coaches at the youth levels.
This arrogant, narrow minded, saviour-like mentality is typical of some wannabe, neverwas Brits who think they ‘know’ the game. Knowing a little bit more than the average American parent or sports fan does about ‘footie’ does not make you an expert – it makes you boastful and arrogant.
As for the article itself – it’s not whether the owners/managers have a facination for British players or Championship level players – it’s about what quality these players are. Championship (or otherwise) there are excellent MLS level players earning more money than MLS can afford to pay them. Therefore the veterans unlikely to find a better deal are interested in MLS. They can never be held up as an example of an average Championship player. There are also plenty of good young players in the lower leagues worth taking a gamble on who would not cost a lot of money. Of course they will prefer to live the dream of being spotted by a Premier club and rarely consider MLS. British football is not a good trawling ground for MLS ready players. Why would any pro in England leave to come to MLS unless it was for money? There will always be exceptions to the rule and I suppose that is what Mo Jo and his pals are looking for?
by usbluebirdcrusader on Feb 19, 2010 3:35 PM EST up reply actions
Completely agree.
While brits may come with an acquired gloss whatever their current skill/age level I’d be fairly suspicious of the motives of the players making the switch. Perhaps when the recession finally takes its effect on soccer (nowt wrong with the word soccer, Nick A, it’s been called that since the laws were codified; it’s ‘footie’ that makes my teeth itch) then players may approach the move with a little more equanimity, rather than wanting just to be a big fish in a huge, but shallow, pond (that metaphor’s been stretched as far as it’ll go, I think…).
I’m glad i’m not the only one who understands how backwards it is when english “football” snobs look down at we americans for using the word soccer, when soccer is an originally english name given to Association Football to distinguish it from Rugby Football in the late 1800’s, derived from the abbreviation ‘Assoc.’
/etymology lesson.
Academy perspective
I played at one of the nascent samba academies when they began exporting their program after their success with Rooney. My teammates played in the local domestic league for different teams, but we were, for the most part, american expatriates who had grown up playing together, On the whole, the coaches were extremely impressed with our development, not to mention very surprised- a number of us went on to play at Division one schools in the US, and at least one of us is playing in Belgium (popular with the kids who were considering playing professionally, lost track after I went to college). From personal experience, I think the MLS comparison to the championship is apt- We regularly tanned the hides of pub leaguers and lower division pro teams (full time players), but we couldn’t claim to be nearly of the level of an MLS team, so that puts that idea to lie (let alone college- I’m one of many who didn’t play in college- the only advantage we’d have is that we’d played together most of our lives). I’d like to see the Sounders or Galaxy play Burnley, Hull, Sunderland, or Leeds- I think you’d be surprised at the results. What disturbs me is that the English youth teams regularly beat Division one teams when they come here or we go over there. That is the level that needs the most work.
by Londonjoe on Feb 21, 2010 1:38 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Staying out of the MLS/Championship thing
But if Capello selects Beckham, England will deserve what it gets in South Africa.
England will deserve what it gets in South Africa.
… To the quarter Finals…?
its what we manage to achieve every time
Top 10 in the world respectability, which isn’t bad for a country which has a smaller population than the other Top 9.
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by firejerrynow on Feb 23, 2010 9:25 PM EST up reply actions
Players from "around the world"
Like USA, Mexico, Colombia, Sweden, England, Argentina, Bolovia, Canada, T&T, basically all of CONCACAF plus a smattering of others (Australia, New Zealand)
Or like the Championship with players from England, Australia, USA, New Zealand, Algeria, Ivory Coast, Portgual, Slovenia, Czeck and Sweden.
In fact those lists look fairly similar in talent. Certainly the Championship has more of them, but guess what? It has 8 more teams than MLS
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Yeah but
if you take two players from, say, New Zealand, where is the better player going to go? New York’s one one the world’s most prestigious cities, West Bromwich is a grey slice of North West Birmingham, but I’m betting he chooses to play in Midlands rain…
For regular players on the NZ WC squad
3 are in the Championship
2 are in MLS
There is no “But” here. The Championship has more National Team players than MLS, because it has 33% more teams.
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Simon Elliot (the NZ player on SJ)
is too old to play in MLS… wish the Quakes would dump him. He had a good long MLS career but he sucks now.
You can change your job, you can change your wife, you can even change your gender, but you can never change your club.
Win or lose, we will always be here for you.
Fear no foe, wherever we go.
by johnjahafanclub on Feb 21, 2010 4:25 PM EST up reply actions
I don't remember if I counted him or not
I used players with 10 CAPS or more who were on the last roster during qualifying. This was for an intial estimate. After the May International Date I’m running the numbers again, but for every player.
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That's not the point though.
We’re talking quality not quantity.
More players from better national teams
Should be an indicator of the quality of the league correct?
I mean if there was a league that had every player from each of the World Cup sides, and the next best 32 national teams it would be the best league in the world right? Even if based in Togo, if it had that talent it would be amazing.
So where those players play, and how good their national teams are influenced what I did here.
Commenting here though did lead me to think that a modifier for number of teams in the league is likely necessary.
And, I actually think that MLS isn’t quite as good as the Champsionship on average, but more like the upper third of League One and the lower half of the Championship.
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That's a
separate argument though. A league that features a large number of International players is different from a league that features players from a large number of nations, which was the original point.
Interesting link, by the way, although again I’d say that puts forward another (and likely more reliable) different system altogether. Serie A, for instance, has the fourth largest number of players expected to go to SA in your list but I’ll bet a huge number of them are Italian, rather than players from around the world.
5 from Brazil
1 from Netherlands
3 from Honduras
1 from USA
1 Algeria
1 Cameroon
2 Uraguay
1 Denmark
1 Greece
1 Portugal
3 Serbia
1 Slovenia
1 Slovakia
1 Switzerland
Oh, and the original quote to which I responded was
You still need accomplished players from around the world to raise the standard of the MLS and make it more competitive.
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So largely
Italian then? 17 likely to go: that’s a full team and six of the seven subs (or have they gone with that dumb eleven on the bench rule for the competition?).
As your own stats show, even the Championship contains a number of internationals. Each one of those that feature there though do not stack up against each on in La Liga or the EPL; that’s the basis for my argument (such as it is – we already agree on the conclusion after all).1 unnamed International = 1 talent point is an unsafe equation.
12 Italians
But yes, it isn’t 1 for 1
I use the Soccer Power Index ratings for national teams so a league with some players from great nations is generally better than having some players from mediocre nations.
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That
sounds sensible. That blog of yours is a good read btw.
Thanks
I appreciate the kind words
I’m glad Steve added me to the network
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so.....
people are equating MLS with the middle of the Championship (and i’m not arguing with that). just curious, what would happen if columbus, LA, and houston (tops in points in 2009) were promoted to the EPL next year? would all three be relegated the following year?
what say y’all????
by michaeljspinelli on Feb 20, 2010 12:47 PM EST reply actions
One would stay up
Portsmouth would take the other going down spot
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Well I figured since the promoted sides were from the just finished season
that they would be up in the current season there.
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Oh, and if an MLS side went up
and had the promised 10s of millions that could be spent on payroll to add a few players I expect that they would do just as well as most promoted clubs, which IIRC is that they stay up for only about 2 years on average.
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While I agree in principal
the teams at the top are probably better than most of the teams in the MLS; i.e, Newcastle, WBA, Nottingham Forest, and Swansea City would probably beat many if not all MLS teams.
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RE: MLS and Championship League
I ‘m an American who lived in Europe for 11 years. Didn’t start watching MLS until about 5 years ago. I’ve watched a lot of European and U.S. soccer. I think that top MLS are on par with the lower half English Premier League (EPL) and the lower half with the Championship League. Many of the top EPL teams have very few English players. I’ve seen a number of players who came from Championship League which didn’t meet the standard from some top tier MLS teams. However, who cares – I enjoy watching MLS, EPL and Championship League. The English team I support is Leicester City FC.
by Jonathan Brown on Feb 20, 2010 10:58 PM EST reply actions
MLS is Equal to Colaship 1
After looking over the players and the tactics involved I’d be safe to say that the MLS is on par with League 1 in England with the top teams taking a place in the Championship.
Some many players have gone on to be success stories elsewhere because of the tactics involved. In MLS you play to the coaches likeing; in Europe you play to the players preferences. Junior Agogo is a great example; a cut MLSer who now is a important peice in Ghana’s national team after years in League 2 with Bristol Rovers.
Sure MLS has some players who are world beaters but besides Donovan most want to get out of here. I think us Americans want MLS to succed but have to face the fact that we will be an exporter league unless we are going to pay outrageous wages for our club teams. And yes even then their is a problem, we don’t have access to the Champions League so their is no chance for a “higher” competition. For me personally I’m okay with MLS and its world standings but some hype it up too much.
Its not a bad league but will have to rely on never getting the best players till past their primes.
Somebody forgot to pick-up the trailer.
Dickov has been signed by Leeds
“Despite interest from Toronto FC”
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