Single-table format? Fall starts? Not good ideas for MLS
by Steve Davis on Sep 14, 2010 4:05 PM EDT
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PrintTwo developments today around the soccer planet today will breathe new life into two old arguments that just refuse to die the quiet, respectable death they deserve.
First the news: MLS will adopt a 34-game season for 2011, an increase in four matches over today’s 30-game schedule. Yours truly was the first to tell you about the potential change. High five!
Also, the
So, I certainly expect a fresh reappearance of this motley pair of arguments:
-- That Major League Soccer should align itself with these other leagues, beginning in the late summer and finishing in the spring.
-- That Major League Soccer should scrap the playoffs for a single-table format.
The proponents of these two arguments are one-part soccer snob (“Everything they do in Europe or
Read on for the arguments against:
On MLS aligning itself with the world soccer calendar:
This one I’ve covered before, so I won’t spend too much time chewing on the bones when I’ve already gobbled up the meat. It is a good idea in that it mitigates many of the club-vs.-country conflicts in our land. Not all of them, but most.
But it’s just not practical. Not right now, anyway.
If you’re going to play soccer in
Brrrr!
A lot of people just aren’t going to show up for these games. And do not tell me “the NFL does it.” I know the NFL does it. Major League Soccer IS NOT the NFL! People are paying $20,000 for PSLs at the new Giants Stadium. There are just eight homes games a year. So they are motivated to bundle up, put on their mittens and long johns and get on with it.
A regular season meeting on a cold, January night between Chivas
Along the same lines, season tickets holders drive NFL attendance. Most MLS clubs still don’t have significant season ticket bases. (God bless you soccer crazies in
Outside of weather concerns, there’s also so much more competition for in the fall and winter for the fan dollar, the sponsorship dollar and for media attention. (Although that last one is changing due to soccer’s gradually increasing popularity and due to the evolving media world.)
When more people are so heavily invested in their MLS teams that they’ll visit the park come hell or high water, maybe we can visit about this one again.
As for the single table: Yes, the symmetry lines up nicely for next season. There will be 18 teams. Each team plays each other twice, once at home, once on the road. So the schedule is perfectly balanced. Hell, we haven’t seen such perfect lines since Piper Perabo.
But MLS will continue to grow; it won’t be an 18-team league for long. What then? You can’t have a single table with an unbalanced schedule.
Besides, what’s wrong with playoffs? I know it isn’t how they do it in the
I think it’s great to incorporate some American elements into soccer tradition – when it comes to structural elements of the league. I wouldn’t want to tamper with the laws of the game itself, of course, but how you decide championships is fair game for evolution.
By the way, some European leagues have adopted the American playoff format for promotion matches, and the drama of these matches is not lost on the public or the press. They seem to fancy the playoff structure.
There’s nothing wrong with taking something great and adding an American twist. Hell, that’s how we have the pizza that you eat today. And who doesn’t like pizza?
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Agree
Good stuff Steve
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100% agree.
MLS gives me something to watch besides baseball in the mind-numbing sports wasteland that is the summer (at least, during the 3 years when there’s not a world cup). Moving to a European schedule would put them up against college football, the NFL, and the NBA… and that’s just not a recipe for success.
Ditto
Well said Steve—nothing there I would disagree with.
The world past 20
It is clear by statements made by “the Don” and other owners that MLS is not going to stop at 20 teams, and I doubt if the growth continues in the new markets that we won’t be at 24 teams within 4 years. I think we will likely see a break up of the conferences into “divisions” think now nicely it would work at 20 and 24 teams to have 4 divisions making up two conferences. The playoffs could be the top team in each division plus the next best two teams in each division for the 8 playoff teams then you put the 4 from the West into 1v4 & 2v3, same for the East and let it go.
I do agree this is the USA, we are not Europe and no we don’t have to imitate everything they have done to be a legit league or to improve the quality of play- ask Mista about the play in MLS. I am tired of those who believe that without a single table, without relegation and promotion that MLS isn’t a real league and that it will suck unless we rip out everything that is keeping it alive in the sake of being like Europe.
I feel better now
by denz on Sep 14, 2010 5:12 PM EDT reply actions 2 recs
Why is it that I seem to recall FIFA not allowing leagues to have more than 20 teams. Maybe that was UEFA, maybe I’m just making that up. IIRC, the discussion would have been 3-4 years ago. This is why I am always curious about expansion past 20 teams
↑ ↑ ↓ ↓ ← → ← → b a (select) start
FIFA has said something to that effect
But it’s important to remember that in every country except the US, they adhere pretty rigidly to the ‘home-away’ format… or in some cases like Scotland ‘home-away-home-away’.
However, in US sports, we aren’t so emotionally tied to that format.
It will be interesting to see where things go, though. The US soccer fan community has gotten a lot larger, and a lot more educated in how the rest of the world does it.
I used to feel that having more than 20 teams, we’d just do what the NFL, NBA, NHL and MLB do. Have unbalanced schedules, conferences, etc. But I’m now starting to think that the US soccer fan is getting large enough and attached to ‘the way the rest of the world does it’ enough that it might be a little tougher for the fans to be OK with a non-balanced schedule.
Upshot as far as FIFA goes — their only concern was the number of games that players and teams were playing. They wanted to make sure there was time for national competitions. When MLS goes past 20 teams (and I’m sure it will some day), we’ll just set an upper limit to games at something like 38, and not play a straight home-away schedule.
Or maybe we’ll split MLS and have promotion/relegation;)
(oops, did I say that?;) Just teasing. I have been solidly on the “There will never be promotion/relegation in the US” camp for years.)
FIFA recommendations work well
for countries that are small or have smaller populations bases, but their guidelines and recommendations are just that and not requirements. With MLS I honestly see the league going to more than 20 teams and it is in their plans, they have said as much in some of their internal documents.
I do see us probably stopping at 24, then allowing the league to adjust to slower markets and perhaps due some movement of teams. If they then divided into 2 conferences of 12 teams (2 divisions of 6 teams), it would allow them to have a schedule of home and away with each team in their conference (22 matches and then either home or away (alternating years) with the 12 teams of the other conference. That would keep the 34 match number alive, and seems almost logical.
So the question is what do we do from 18 teams (2011) to 24 teams (???)- I think they play it by ear and we probably will end up with something that will make someone made.
Promotion and Relegation aren’t going to happen, no owner is going to pay the cost of building a $100 million dollar plus stadium, a 40-50 million dollar franchise fee, plus the costs of building an organization, only to know that they could be off TV and out of the eyes of sponsors within a couple years. I can see you trying to convince the owners of the Texas Rangers, or New York Yankees that if they finish in one of the bottom 3 places of MLB that they would be playing in AAA the next year and perhaps for years to come, that they would give up all MLB revenues and would have to deal with losing their merchandise deals, most of their sponsors, and probably a good half of their gameday crowds.
The question to me is what are the 5 markets to join MLS before a slowdown in growth? We know “the Don” has a raging one for the New York Cosmos, but beyond that no city or group has really built much of a case for a team. Sure San Antonio has a fan group hoping to be the next SOB’s, but I don’t see it. St. Louis, well they had their shot and folded a WPS team in months and their USL side is folding at the end of the season. Maimi has been rumored a couple times, but nothing has ever come of it. Will we finally see a couple of European clubs pony up and back a MLS version of their brand? Barca Miami, Inter Detroit, Las Vegas AC, Real (oh wait we did that)>
MLS should have single table format
The simple reason is that a single table format encourages more attacking play. If you want to win a championship a point on the road is not good enough. A point, now, is a basically a victory. You won’t see as much negative and dour soccer because teams will try to win more than settle for the point.
There was a firefight!!!!
Scoring average in MLS is basically the same as scoring average in EPL
I am not a Supporter | I am not a Fan | I am a Sounder
Sounder At Heart
But there are way more draws in MLS than EPL
There was a firefight!!!!
by ThePhenomenon on Sep 14, 2010 8:15 PM EDT up reply actions
exactly.
There are more draws because there are less clear dominance on top and clear inferiority on the bottom, not because of the playoff structure.
I looked it up
ESPN.com has the standing back to 2002, and only in 2003 would winning all your home games and tieing all your road games not one the Supporter’s Shield. In the EPL, that would generally get you 4th place
exploding highfive
So?
Do you really think that the playoffs are more of a cause for ties than parity?
If ManU, Chelsea, Arsenal, etc. weren’t immensely more talented than Stoke, Hull, Blackpool, etc, there’s be lots more ties in the EPL.
that was the point I was trying to make
I was assuming the standing wouldn’t be affected by a lack of playoffs. Which might not be a very good assumption
exploding highfive
But that's not the original point
The original point claimed that it was having no playoffs, rather than (as is really the case) the fact that Chelsea’s budget is colossally larger than Blackpool’s.
Believe you me, when those two get together, Blackpool is playing for the tie. They just don’t ahve the resources to pull it off.
'Gentlemen' he said,
'I don't need your organization,
I've shined your shoes,
moved your mountains and marked your cards,
but Eden is burning.
Either get ready for elimination,
or else your heart must have the courage,
for the changing of the guards.'
Competitiveness/Parity does not equal parity
Just because a league has parity does not mean it has quality.
There was a firefight!!!!
by ThePhenomenon on Sep 17, 2010 2:11 PM EDT up reply actions
But draws have no correlation to competitveness
So what’s the argument?
I am not a Supporter | I am not a Fan | I am a Sounder
Sounder At Heart
Soccer in SLC Utah in Winter
that would be frozen nuts. If you saw the last Feb USWNT v Mexica ladies, yes, those were snow angels they made. Seriously, I don’t see my lawn from December (sometimes November) through Feb. That is “months.” Plus, its so damn cold here at night I think the players would be at risk of injury, constantly.
what you don't like snow angels?
Playing in winter would cripple a lot of team by having their gate revenues drop as causal fans would not brave the elements. A single table would not change play, it would simply mean the top 8 teams make the playoffs. MLS isn’t going to drop playoffs, so forget it. MLS Cup is the most watched MLS match each year, there is no way they toss away the only match to get a million plus people watching it.
People in Colorado and Utah usually walk around with their shorts on during blizzard conditions anyway, amirite
Is it hockey season yet?
No seriously, is it?
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by UZ on Sep 16, 2010 5:07 AM EDT up reply actions
Did you read the lede?
They’re shifting to winter games in Russia.
In fucking RUSSIA. You know, the place where half of Napoleon and Hitler’s armies froze to death?
A January fixture at FC Sibir Novosibirsk would make Salt Lake feel like Hawaii by comparison.
Maybe the Russian federation is insane (certainly sounds insane to me to play soccer games in sub-zero conditions), but it has to be pointed out. Nothing here even compares to the problems Russian teams face.
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
I believe the UEFA chmpions league is a large part of the reason for this.
Russian sides have been performing increasingly well in the competition, but they are at a severe competitive disadvatage when the knockout phase occurs in their offseason.
Reyes, Thole, Wright, Beltran, Bay, Davis, Martinez, Tejada...
by Stephen Schmidt on Sep 16, 2010 2:14 PM EDT up reply actions
Russia switching
As Scotland is thinking about going the other way
And Norway and Sweden already are.
Also, Russia will probably do like Germany and take a Winter Break.
I am not a Supporter | I am not a Fan | I am a Sounder
Sounder At Heart
And
Let’s check to see that it doesn’t end in disaster—or isn’t just an empty election-year promise—before we pronounce it a source of emulation.
'Gentlemen' he said,
'I don't need your organization,
I've shined your shoes,
moved your mountains and marked your cards,
but Eden is burning.
Either get ready for elimination,
or else your heart must have the courage,
for the changing of the guards.'
Playoff fix
HOw about going to six teams: winner of each division and next four teams. Division winners get a bye and then face the winner of the four teams that play two-match, home-home playoffs. The conference finals are then hosted by the division winners for a chance to play in the MLS Cup.
You eliminate one week, allowing for more regular season games. You make regular season-performance more important, somewhat satisfying the single-tabel crowd. You address the fixture congestion a little. You keep the general bones of the playoff format that Americans love.
Kicking k-nowledge at Sounder at Heart and Dreaming of Wigan
balanced table?
i’m having trouble understanding how a single table system could ever be unbalanced. yes, each team in an 18-team table can play each other team twice – home and away.
why can’t 19 teams do that? um, they can. you don’t have to have an even number of teams to balance the table. having 19 instead of 18 just means you have 36 games instead of 34.
am i missing something?
by michaeljspinelli on Sep 15, 2010 12:39 AM EDT reply actions
the point is...
where does it stop? There are a lot of markets in the US that could support an MLS club. If the league is eventually 24 teams, you certainly can’t have a 46 game season.
Why get rid of the playoffs? Extra revenue, more drama, I really don’t see the downside.
Yes you can
You can have a 46 games schedule—it’s already done in England as the English Championship, League One and League Two all have 24 teams in them playing a 46-game schedule.
minor playoff tweak
Steve, great points throughout.
Though I agree the playoffs should stay, I’d love to see a slight adjustment that would make a negative approach less likely in the playoffs, give more of an advantage to the best clubs from the regular season, and eliminate penalty shootouts (a personal pet peeve).
Home-and-home tiebreaker based on regular season performance. In a 1 vs 4 series, the fourth team knows they have to outright win, because the top seed advances if tied after the second leg. With this approach, the conf final should be home and home as well (always seemed weird for the first round only to be home and home anyway).
Agree on the schedule, but I love the single table...
I’ve been at Gillette in the winter. No thanks. As far as a single table goes, I do prefer it to the playoff format, but it only works if there are multiple competions within it (i.e. Champion’s League places, Europa League places, relegation). MLS doesn’t have the additional exterior drama yet (CCL – no one cares). I wouldn’t mind seeing a league big enough to accomdate split single tables, East and West, and the winners only meet in the MLS Cup. I think this could provide high drama, and satisfy both the purists and the Ameri-philes.
That's an interesting idea...
but the conferences would need to have AT LEAST 14 teams. Anything smaller and the regular conference season would be just too short. At least 10-15 years before the conditions would be right for this. You’d also obviously have to get past the single entity structure, which is not an easy change.
The other issue is one conference getting no benefit from high-Q-rating teams and players. Why would a NY fan care about LA have Rooney, Messi, and Ozil 8 years from now if their team never plays against them? In the end, I just couldn’t see this happening.
Single Table
MLS should go to a single table but keep the playoffs. It won’t happen as the American sports fan loves its Conferences and divisions.
It’d be easy for single table—line em all up and the top 8 go to the playoffs. I guess that makes too much sense though.
I wouldn't mind fall/winter/spring format
…but only because it’s so damn hot in Houston in the Summer. Of course that’s part of our home field advantage too. Even thought it would make national team commitments easier MLS needs to stay right where it is scheduling wise for now.
I love the playoffs. I think the MLS should do more to try and make the supporters shield mean something…but the drama of a playoff just can’t be beat, even if it means the best team doesn’t always win. They could just drop the whole East/West conference thing though. Seed the top eight and have at it. I know as the league grows scheduling will be a problem, but the system we have now where a west team can win Eastern conference championship is just silly.
"Well, at least our players kept their helmets on, so that showed some intelligence"-Bob McNair
I would much prefer single table top 8 in playoffs
That way the true top 8 make it.
by chrisperry1983 on Sep 15, 2010 11:36 AM EDT up reply actions
Agree completely with the schedule, but agree with chrisperry1983 on the table. The conferences are completely arbitrary and have no effect on the schedule. Why do we even have them? (seriously, I’d like to know)
Let the true top 8 into the playoffs. If the league ever gets up to 30+ teams, then add conferences and do home and away in conference and home or away (alternating each year) out of conference.
Keeping the symmetry of the schedule gives the regular season validity. An unbalanced schedule makes the point totals pretty meaningless at the end of the year.
as far as I understand it...
I think the conferences were put in place as a tool to schedule gegraphic rivals to play each other more often and directly compete in the standings and playoffs. When the league was so small that they had to schedule some teams to play each other 3 or four times, they wanted to groom the LA/Chivas, Dallas/Houston, NY/NE/DC, cRapid/RSL rivalries.
These reasons are pretty outdated and silly now, and I hope they abolish them, too. Not a big deal, because it would take a pretty crazy-unbalanced season for the current system to prevent the eighth best team from making the playoffs, though. That team (7th in it’s conference), would have to have a better record than the 2nd place team in the other conference.
And when there are 20 teams
or 24 or 28 or 32 as all national leagues in America eventually do?
Conferences will be needed then too.
I am not a Supporter | I am not a Fan | I am a Sounder
Sounder At Heart
MLS
has to stay Spring-Fall. It currently only has one competitor for most of it’s season (baseball) and it just so happens that baseball is a sport that seems to be losing a lot of youthful fanbase while soccer seems to be gaining it. The MLS needs to keep trying to take advantage of this.
Competing with the monster that is the NFL is not smart. Then to have your playoffs going up against the beginning of the MLB season, where excitement is much higher than in the dog days of summer would be another poor choice.
Don’t mind the playoffs either, just think that the seeding system needs to be tweaked.
I think the biggest thing they need to fix at this point: Officiating. Call some penalties, quit making it such a physical game, would love to see MLS have a little more finesse in it.
Final thought, why the hell would they go over 20 teams? Don’t water down the talent. The MLS already struggles enough, as they keep acquiring better players, it should show throughout the league so you have lots of talent on every team and more competition. 24 teams will just force a lot more crappy 0-0 draws without skill.
by I need more Esteban on Sep 15, 2010 1:33 PM EDT reply actions
Talent dilution is a canard.
Soccer America recently published a stat that MLS basically plays the same number of Americans, in total, as it did 8 years ago. This while the American talent pool has almost certainly been slowly but steadily growing, and the last two drafts have been perhaps the deepest in league history (and that doesn’t count the Home Grown players who, aside from Andy Najar, may take a little longer to develop but will add further in time).
That leaves only the foreigners, the supply of whom is virtually unlimited and determined basically only by the salary you can pay them. You could add 50 teams, and if you tripled the salary cap at the same time, within a couple years the foreigners on those teams would still be better than what MLS has now.
'Gentlemen' he said,
'I don't need your organization,
I've shined your shoes,
moved your mountains and marked your cards,
but Eden is burning.
Either get ready for elimination,
or else your heart must have the courage,
for the changing of the guards.'
Well put
And considering that MLS has not used all of its MLS slots, and there are something like 200 Americans playing abroad (most in crap leagues on crap teams) expansion has not lead to dillution.
I am not a Supporter | I am not a Fan | I am a Sounder
Sounder At Heart
still risk of expanding too fast
keep in mind, if it wants to remain an economically stable enterprise, MLS can’t just waive their magic wand and triple the salary cap (thank you NASL for showing us what not to do).
So next year they’ll have 18, the year after 19, then they’ll want to bring it to an even 20 pretty quickly to make scheduling easier. At that point, I really think they should let that structure stick around for a few years on an 38 game schedule, and raise salary cop and roster size only once profitability and talent level of the existing franchises warrants it.
What's the risk in expanding if there is cheap and available talent?
I am not a Supporter | I am not a Fan | I am a Sounder
Sounder At Heart
I a agree
The weather is a big big problem. Can someone tell me how Russia is going to the fall-winter-spring format ? I like the 34 game format but also realize a playoff format is what USA fans want because all of our sports do it. I would like the EPL to have a playoff of the top 4 teams. Playoff format I would say would give a true champ.
Salary cap
The salary cap right now is under 3 million a team—the players are paid peanuts and thus leave for higher paying jobs even if it is in crap leagues on crap teams. Pushing the salary cap to 5 million will keep a few more players here.
